Hello fellow brethren, please hear this and consider this in patience and longsuffering. I have no debate, but rather some clarification. I am learning of things and some things are coming to light for me and I believe that it is good that I share these things with you concerning the teaching of how God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. You may disagree with me at first glance, but please search your Scriptures to see if what I say is truth or not. Too many times I have seen a quick rebuttle without any "benefit of the doubt" so to speak and not an effort to see if the other is right. I exhort you all to be noble my brothers, as it is written Act 17:11 "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so." I am no Apostle, and no authority over your own thinking and understanding, but I am a believer in the Scriptures.... therefore as one who is learning and growing with you in the Lord, if you believe this to be true, I ask that you give what I am going to say the considertation it merits as a brother.
FHII, dear brother I understand your problem with the doctrine of trinity. You have percieved that the teaching is of three Gods, and not one as the Scriptures plainly state. However, the difficulty you are having is with the word "person".... at no fault of yours my friend. Yes, you are correct that the word "trinity" is not in the Bible, and nowhere does it say that God is three "persons", and it is not your responsibility as a son of God to study anything but the Scripture, nevertheless for the sake of understanding your brothers who call themselves trinitarian, maybe you could give this some consideration and know that they are not polytheists, or worshippers of more than one Lord, it is just that they have limited themselves to a certain idea. I have done some study on this idea, and find it not to be in error as explained by the word hypostasis, just open-ended and not concrete as all of man's attempts at understanding things above them are.
This is actually what the word "person" in the doctrine of how God is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, mainly in the creeds of the Catholic religion. I am using that phrase instead of "trinity" for your sake as I understand that you may not care for that word as it is man-made. I can comprimise the word trinity as it is not a word of Scripture, but nevertheless the idea is a given (that the Father, Word, and Holy Ghost are three that are one) and you would agree right? So then the trinity is an explanation of how these three, the Father, Word, and Holy Ghost are one. The problem is that no one really explains what they mean by "person". The idea of hypostasis was conveyed by the word "persona", yet some say that the word is insufficient as to fully explain what hypostasis means. I looked up this word in the English dictionary and this is what I found.
hypostasis- Properly, subsistence or substance. Hence it is used to denote distinct substance, or subsistence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in the Godhead, called by the Greek christians, three hypostases. The Latins more generally used persona to express the sense of hypostasis, and this is the modern practice. We say, the Godhead consists of three persons.
You know me, and you know I care not for orthodoxy or the teaching of any denomination if it does not line up with the Scripture, at least that is what I strive to be like. However FHII, we can give space for brothers to try to explain the unexplainable right? I mean, we all have our own minds of the flesh, and our own limitations of conveying thoughts that are far above us. The funny thing is, many trinitarians say that God is not someone who can be explained by words, yet we have the Scriptures that tell us of him, and they go ahead and try anyway with the doctrine of the trinity. Men say, "we don't know how the three are one, we just know they are" yet they insist on you accepting their ideas of "how" the three are one, please bear with them in their folly. I understand that you may not agree with the idea of hypostasis, but there really is no point in arguing such a point. Some say that you have to accept it, however the Lord is your Lord and not another, so it matters not right? No man hath seen God, he is not one to be percieved with the capacity we have as we are made after his likeness and in his image, not vice-versa. There really is no need to condemn such a doctrine, although you may not totally understand it, or agree with it. The doctrine of the trinity is not a teaching that God is three Gods, but what the confusing part about it is, is their explanation of "how" God is the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost eternally. They speak of the three persons being three substances yet one essence....huh? Personally, I don't understand it and I don't condemn it. That is what I say and I leave it at that. All I know is that the Father, Word, and Holy Ghost are one God, and not three different gods. Also, I know that God is not a group of divine beings, but that he the one eternal being that created everything that is. Yet they are definitely three, but I don't know how or what substance they would be, or if there are three substances of God, and I really don't care about the technicalities of it, but I know that there is one Lord and he is Jesus Christ. Men may condemn us for not understanding and accepting their understanding of it, but that is not a big deal is it? Let us be above judging others by our own understanding, and rather exhort them to believe what is written in the Scriptures.
To my trinitarian brethren, why would you hold brethren to such a high standard of deep and difficult understanding? No doubt, there is a need to affirm that Jesus is God, and that the Father is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. Yet I see here that when one does not accept your understanding of how the three are one, you treat them like they are not believing the Scripture? Why? Our thinking, or idea of the trinity is not Scripture nor authoritative over anything but our own conscience. The Scriptures don't say that God is three substances or hypostases, or three persons, but that he is the Father, the Word, and Holy Ghost, and he is one Lord. Nowhere does FHII say otherwise, so what truly is your problem? I have heard brother Tim say that he is attacking the nature of God. This makes no sense, for how do you even know that something is being attacked when no man even understands the nature of God in the first place? You may say this is spiritually discerned and any born-again christian would know this, yet where is this in our Bible? Sure, we can attempt at explaining his being and his make-up, but that is all it is....an attempt at conveying the unconveyable. It truly is unconveyable, which is why it is not written. No one here has disagreed that there is one God, and that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Ghost is God. However, the problem is that no one can explain the distinction of the three clearly, though I have tried with simple words yet I keep being called a Nestorian and a Modalist, not by the standards of Scripture, but by your understanding of something you cannot possibly understand. The trinitarian says they are three hypostases, FHII says they are distinct only in regards to their relation to man....who is right? The Scriptures give ample support for FHII, and hypostases is not found in the Scripture, so what is your problem? I will tell you what it is, it is your pride. As it is written, Pro 13:10 "Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom." This is the understanding of the trinity from Knotty Oak Baptist in Coventry, RI, a church that I attended for about 7 years....
The Trinity
We believe in one God, creator and sustainer of all things, eternally existing in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; that these are equal in every divine perfection, and that they execute distinct but harmonious offices in the work of creation, providence, and redemption.
See that? Simple, yet FHII does not agree with them being three different beings as denoted with the English word "person", and hypostases is not used, and who can clearly understand the word hypostases anyway? To say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct substances is just not understandable, and the definition of the word 'person' is left to the individual and the individual is safe from heresy as long as he does not view the three as being three seperate beings or gods....yet the other end of the spectrum is not clearly defined by anything but our own understanding of the what the three are. Although you as trinitarians have your own ideas that define the existance of God as three, you are not God, and are not authorities on the Godhead, and the Scriptures do not teach us how he is three, and yet one, but we simply accept this truth. Although not everyone agrees on the how, they are agree that it is so. Yet some insist on pushing their own understanding of the "how" and that is wrong.
This is what I want all you brethren to consider, and that is what the Scriptures say to me about these things. The Scriptures never state that the Son is of the three that are one in 1 John 5:7, which is the only Scripture that clearly defines this truth of the three being one. The Scriptures state that the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost are one. The Scriptures never state that God is viewable by our natural sense of sight. It is written that no man hath seen God at any time, yet men saw Jesus. The Scriptures say that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost have one name. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" Mat. 28:19. It does not say "in the names" but "in the name". So then what is this name? "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." Isa. 42:8. The Lord is the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost according to the Scriptures. So then, who is this man Jesus? Is he the Lord God, or man, or both? He is both, yet God is not man but a Spirit as Jesus said. He is fully man as he is flesh and bone, he is fully God in that he is also Spirit...that is God. The Scriptures state that the Father, Word, and Holy Ghost are one, Jesus is the Word and thus he says that he and his Father are one, not one in will or purpose as that would have been said, but literally one in being. Yet what of the fact of Jesus being a man? Well, that is why it is not written that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one, but the Word is one with the Father and Holy Ghost. The Word has a body, and this is the Son of God. The Son of God is not of the three, but has the same name for he is all three. The Father, Word, and Holy Ghost are one Lord, who is Jesus Christ. In Christ dwelleth the fulness of the Godhead bodily. This is often ignored, but this plainly means that God and all that God is, is in that man's body and actually is him. Jesus is not a just a part of the Godhead, but he is the fulness of the Godhead in a body, and his name is the Lord and he is the Son of God for the fact of the body that was born of a virgin.
This ruffles the trinitarian's feathers, but it is written throughout the Scripture.
God is our Father.
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
The Lord God is the Spirit.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Jesus is still with us, yet his body is with him in heaven. This is because he is God, and is not bound to being only where his fleshly body is. This is my contention, not that there are'nt three persons, but that these three persons are the one Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and he is not just a part of the Godhead, but that the Godhead is fully his. Men say that Jesus is fully God, yet have a problem when I say that he is the Father. This is because they don't distinguish between the body and the Spirit of Jesus. Please take time to consider this, if you can't agree then so be it.
FHII, dear brother I understand your problem with the doctrine of trinity. You have percieved that the teaching is of three Gods, and not one as the Scriptures plainly state. However, the difficulty you are having is with the word "person".... at no fault of yours my friend. Yes, you are correct that the word "trinity" is not in the Bible, and nowhere does it say that God is three "persons", and it is not your responsibility as a son of God to study anything but the Scripture, nevertheless for the sake of understanding your brothers who call themselves trinitarian, maybe you could give this some consideration and know that they are not polytheists, or worshippers of more than one Lord, it is just that they have limited themselves to a certain idea. I have done some study on this idea, and find it not to be in error as explained by the word hypostasis, just open-ended and not concrete as all of man's attempts at understanding things above them are.
This is actually what the word "person" in the doctrine of how God is the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, mainly in the creeds of the Catholic religion. I am using that phrase instead of "trinity" for your sake as I understand that you may not care for that word as it is man-made. I can comprimise the word trinity as it is not a word of Scripture, but nevertheless the idea is a given (that the Father, Word, and Holy Ghost are three that are one) and you would agree right? So then the trinity is an explanation of how these three, the Father, Word, and Holy Ghost are one. The problem is that no one really explains what they mean by "person". The idea of hypostasis was conveyed by the word "persona", yet some say that the word is insufficient as to fully explain what hypostasis means. I looked up this word in the English dictionary and this is what I found.
hypostasis- Properly, subsistence or substance. Hence it is used to denote distinct substance, or subsistence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in the Godhead, called by the Greek christians, three hypostases. The Latins more generally used persona to express the sense of hypostasis, and this is the modern practice. We say, the Godhead consists of three persons.
You know me, and you know I care not for orthodoxy or the teaching of any denomination if it does not line up with the Scripture, at least that is what I strive to be like. However FHII, we can give space for brothers to try to explain the unexplainable right? I mean, we all have our own minds of the flesh, and our own limitations of conveying thoughts that are far above us. The funny thing is, many trinitarians say that God is not someone who can be explained by words, yet we have the Scriptures that tell us of him, and they go ahead and try anyway with the doctrine of the trinity. Men say, "we don't know how the three are one, we just know they are" yet they insist on you accepting their ideas of "how" the three are one, please bear with them in their folly. I understand that you may not agree with the idea of hypostasis, but there really is no point in arguing such a point. Some say that you have to accept it, however the Lord is your Lord and not another, so it matters not right? No man hath seen God, he is not one to be percieved with the capacity we have as we are made after his likeness and in his image, not vice-versa. There really is no need to condemn such a doctrine, although you may not totally understand it, or agree with it. The doctrine of the trinity is not a teaching that God is three Gods, but what the confusing part about it is, is their explanation of "how" God is the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost eternally. They speak of the three persons being three substances yet one essence....huh? Personally, I don't understand it and I don't condemn it. That is what I say and I leave it at that. All I know is that the Father, Word, and Holy Ghost are one God, and not three different gods. Also, I know that God is not a group of divine beings, but that he the one eternal being that created everything that is. Yet they are definitely three, but I don't know how or what substance they would be, or if there are three substances of God, and I really don't care about the technicalities of it, but I know that there is one Lord and he is Jesus Christ. Men may condemn us for not understanding and accepting their understanding of it, but that is not a big deal is it? Let us be above judging others by our own understanding, and rather exhort them to believe what is written in the Scriptures.
To my trinitarian brethren, why would you hold brethren to such a high standard of deep and difficult understanding? No doubt, there is a need to affirm that Jesus is God, and that the Father is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. Yet I see here that when one does not accept your understanding of how the three are one, you treat them like they are not believing the Scripture? Why? Our thinking, or idea of the trinity is not Scripture nor authoritative over anything but our own conscience. The Scriptures don't say that God is three substances or hypostases, or three persons, but that he is the Father, the Word, and Holy Ghost, and he is one Lord. Nowhere does FHII say otherwise, so what truly is your problem? I have heard brother Tim say that he is attacking the nature of God. This makes no sense, for how do you even know that something is being attacked when no man even understands the nature of God in the first place? You may say this is spiritually discerned and any born-again christian would know this, yet where is this in our Bible? Sure, we can attempt at explaining his being and his make-up, but that is all it is....an attempt at conveying the unconveyable. It truly is unconveyable, which is why it is not written. No one here has disagreed that there is one God, and that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Ghost is God. However, the problem is that no one can explain the distinction of the three clearly, though I have tried with simple words yet I keep being called a Nestorian and a Modalist, not by the standards of Scripture, but by your understanding of something you cannot possibly understand. The trinitarian says they are three hypostases, FHII says they are distinct only in regards to their relation to man....who is right? The Scriptures give ample support for FHII, and hypostases is not found in the Scripture, so what is your problem? I will tell you what it is, it is your pride. As it is written, Pro 13:10 "Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom." This is the understanding of the trinity from Knotty Oak Baptist in Coventry, RI, a church that I attended for about 7 years....
The Trinity
We believe in one God, creator and sustainer of all things, eternally existing in three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; that these are equal in every divine perfection, and that they execute distinct but harmonious offices in the work of creation, providence, and redemption.
See that? Simple, yet FHII does not agree with them being three different beings as denoted with the English word "person", and hypostases is not used, and who can clearly understand the word hypostases anyway? To say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct substances is just not understandable, and the definition of the word 'person' is left to the individual and the individual is safe from heresy as long as he does not view the three as being three seperate beings or gods....yet the other end of the spectrum is not clearly defined by anything but our own understanding of the what the three are. Although you as trinitarians have your own ideas that define the existance of God as three, you are not God, and are not authorities on the Godhead, and the Scriptures do not teach us how he is three, and yet one, but we simply accept this truth. Although not everyone agrees on the how, they are agree that it is so. Yet some insist on pushing their own understanding of the "how" and that is wrong.
This is what I want all you brethren to consider, and that is what the Scriptures say to me about these things. The Scriptures never state that the Son is of the three that are one in 1 John 5:7, which is the only Scripture that clearly defines this truth of the three being one. The Scriptures state that the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost are one. The Scriptures never state that God is viewable by our natural sense of sight. It is written that no man hath seen God at any time, yet men saw Jesus. The Scriptures say that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost have one name. "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" Mat. 28:19. It does not say "in the names" but "in the name". So then what is this name? "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images." Isa. 42:8. The Lord is the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost according to the Scriptures. So then, who is this man Jesus? Is he the Lord God, or man, or both? He is both, yet God is not man but a Spirit as Jesus said. He is fully man as he is flesh and bone, he is fully God in that he is also Spirit...that is God. The Scriptures state that the Father, Word, and Holy Ghost are one, Jesus is the Word and thus he says that he and his Father are one, not one in will or purpose as that would have been said, but literally one in being. Yet what of the fact of Jesus being a man? Well, that is why it is not written that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one, but the Word is one with the Father and Holy Ghost. The Word has a body, and this is the Son of God. The Son of God is not of the three, but has the same name for he is all three. The Father, Word, and Holy Ghost are one Lord, who is Jesus Christ. In Christ dwelleth the fulness of the Godhead bodily. This is often ignored, but this plainly means that God and all that God is, is in that man's body and actually is him. Jesus is not a just a part of the Godhead, but he is the fulness of the Godhead in a body, and his name is the Lord and he is the Son of God for the fact of the body that was born of a virgin.
This ruffles the trinitarian's feathers, but it is written throughout the Scripture.
God is our Father.
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
The Lord God is the Spirit.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Jesus is still with us, yet his body is with him in heaven. This is because he is God, and is not bound to being only where his fleshly body is. This is my contention, not that there are'nt three persons, but that these three persons are the one Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and he is not just a part of the Godhead, but that the Godhead is fully his. Men say that Jesus is fully God, yet have a problem when I say that he is the Father. This is because they don't distinguish between the body and the Spirit of Jesus. Please take time to consider this, if you can't agree then so be it.
