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dcforrey wrote: One of the most compelling arguments against the KJVO position is the fact that the King James Bible itself is a "multiple version" Bible - that is, it recognizes multiple versions of the same Scripture as being inspired, and therefore acceptable for our use. Not at all, you are mistaken...this will be too easy. One way the Bible recognizes and accepts multiple versions is when a New Testament writer quotes an Old Testament passage. Oh, how so, now lets watch the misinformation is about to begin. While I have not checked every instance where the New Testament quotes the Old Testament, in the vast majority of places where I have checked, the New Testament does not quote the Old Testament exactly, which of course means that there exists the original text, as well as a slightly different New Testament version of that same text. Sometimes the same Old Testament passage is quoted several times in the New Testament, and none of the three or more passages agree with each other exactly. Yes and do you knwo why? The Holy Spirit who by the way is the Author deceided to change it up a bit, not a problem at all. And we still have God's perfect Word in tact. The Old Testament also accepts multiple versions. In I Kings and II Chronicles we have parallel passages about the same events. While it is acceptable for one account to include material that is not included in the other account (just like the Gospels accounts do), the problem for many KJVO people arises whenever one passage directly quotes someone, while the parallel passage quotes that same speech with different wording. Once again you have failed because you don't have a clue as to who the Author of Scripture is. The Holy Spirit can say whatever and it will never take away from the fact, it's still the Holy and Infallible Word of God. I realize that this is not a problem for all KJVO people, since some of them don't take the position that every last detail of the KJV is perfect right down to every punctuation mark. Wrong again, the Holy Spirit is the Author not you or anhyone else. Some KJVO people find that variant readings of the same quote are OK as long as they mean the same thing. Can you quote any of these KJV Scholars so we can all know who they might be? But there are many KJVO people who do take the position that what we have today in the KJV is without error in every respect, right down to the last detail. For example, if we read a quote in I Kings they believe that we have that person's words recorded exactly as they were spoken (as translated into English, of course). And if you had the originals which you don't have they wouldn't help you out either, because you would have the same problem. It is for those people that the KJV itself actually contradicts their position. Here is an example: In I Kings 22:19-21 we read: And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. Here is the same speech as recorded in I Chronicles 18:18-20: Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and [on] his left. And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him.... If you compare them carefully you will notice a number of differences in wording. There is even a slight change in meaning in at least one place. In II Kings the Lord says, "Who shall persuade Ahab", while I Chronicles records Him as saying, "Who shall entice Ahab". I believe that both of these accounts are inspired, even though they have different wording of the very same speech. The writers of these historical accounts probably used different source documents that varied slightly from each other. Yet for those people within the KJVO position who demand absolute precision in the wording of the text I would ask this question: What exactly did the Lord say? Was it ""Who shall persuade Ahab", or was it ""Who shall entice Ahab"?
One of the most compelling arguments against the KJVO position is the fact that the King James Bible itself is a "multiple version" Bible - that is, it recognizes multiple versions of the same Scripture as being inspired, and therefore acceptable for our use. Not at all, you are mistaken...this will be too easy.
One way the Bible recognizes and accepts multiple versions is when a New Testament writer quotes an Old Testament passage. Oh, how so, now lets watch the misinformation is about to begin. While I have not checked every instance where the New Testament quotes the Old Testament, in the vast majority of places where I have checked, the New Testament does not quote the Old Testament exactly, which of course means that there exists the original text, as well as a slightly different New Testament version of that same text. Sometimes the same Old Testament passage is quoted several times in the New Testament, and none of the three or more passages agree with each other exactly. Yes and do you knwo why? The Holy Spirit who by the way is the Author deceided to change it up a bit, not a problem at all. And we still have God's perfect Word in tact.
The Old Testament also accepts multiple versions. In I Kings and II Chronicles we have parallel passages about the same events. While it is acceptable for one account to include material that is not included in the other account (just like the Gospels accounts do), the problem for many KJVO people arises whenever one passage directly quotes someone, while the parallel passage quotes that same speech with different wording. Once again you have failed because you don't have a clue as to who the Author of Scripture is. The Holy Spirit can say whatever and it will never take away from the fact, it's still the Holy and Infallible Word of God.
I realize that this is not a problem for all KJVO people, since some of them don't take the position that every last detail of the KJV is perfect right down to every punctuation mark. Wrong again, the Holy Spirit is the Author not you or anhyone else. Some KJVO people find that variant readings of the same quote are OK as long as they mean the same thing. Can you quote any of these KJV Scholars so we can all know who they might be?
But there are many KJVO people who do take the position that what we have today in the KJV is without error in every respect, right down to the last detail. For example, if we read a quote in I Kings they believe that we have that person's words recorded exactly as they were spoken (as translated into English, of course). And if you had the originals which you don't have they wouldn't help you out either, because you would have the same problem.
It is for those people that the KJV itself actually contradicts their position.
Here is an example:
In I Kings 22:19-21 we read:
And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
Here is the same speech as recorded in I Chronicles 18:18-20:
Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and [on] his left. And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him....
If you compare them carefully you will notice a number of differences in wording. There is even a slight change in meaning in at least one place. In II Kings the Lord says, "Who shall persuade Ahab", while I Chronicles records Him as saying, "Who shall entice Ahab".
I believe that both of these accounts are inspired, even though they have different wording of the very same speech. The writers of these historical accounts probably used different source documents that varied slightly from each other.
Yet for those people within the KJVO position who demand absolute precision in the wording of the text I would ask this question: What exactly did the Lord say? Was it ""Who shall persuade Ahab", or was it ""Who shall entice Ahab"?
Jun 25 08 5:37 PM
dcforrey wrote: MaricoG, Please don't misrepresent other people's positions. It is one thing to "try to disprove the word of God". It is quite another to try to disprove the belief that one particular translation of God's Word is a perfect translation. Apparently you are confusing the concept of the Word of God with the concept of a given translation of the Word of God Who said anyone hated the KJB? I certainly don't hate it. But like all modern versions in every language it is not a perfect translation. That's why the KJV translators urged us to use multiple versions.
Jun 25 08 6:17 PM
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Jun 25 08 6:23 PM
Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Jun 25 08 6:49 PM
Jun 25 08 7:03 PM
dcforrey wrote: Hi Shain, When I wrote "Some KJVO people find that variant readings of the same quote are OK as long as they mean the same thing" you responded "Can you quote any of these KJV Scholars so we can all know who they might be?" My source was Wil Kinney, who, when I gave him an example similar to one I used above responded this way: "Why is this a problem for you? Don't both phrases mean the same thing? This really seems like a silly example. Six of one, half a dozen or the other." I took that to mean that in his opinion if two different quotes mean the same thing then they are acceptable. If I am wrong about his position then I will happily stand corrected. I have a lot of respect for Wil Kinney but i'm sure he would tell you he's no Bible Scholar as the ones who have supported the KJB since 1611. I'm looking for a quote say from Ruckam. I'd like to know what you mean by "The Holy Spirit who by the way is the Author deceided to change it up a bit". What does that mean? Are you saying He changed a direct quote? All Scripture comes from the Inspiration of God, that being the Holy Spirit. 2Ti 3:16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: What's wrong with the fact that I agree 100% with the position taken by the translators of the KJV? How does make me a person who is not a Bible believer? They were certainly Bible believers, and yet they were the first to admit that their finished work was a not perfect. Again, please answer my question directly: In the example I cited above what exactly did God say? Was it "Who shall persuade Ahab", or was it ""Who shall entice Ahab"? Do you have the original that we can compare this with? No you doubt, so both are correct. But you have a much bigger problemn there is no 1 Chron. 18: 18-20
2Ti 3:16
Jun 25 08 7:40 PM
Jun 25 08 7:58 PM
dcforrey wrote: Hi Shain, You got me. There is no I Chronicles 18:18-20. Should be II Chronicles. 18:18-20. You ask if I have the original. Of course not. But neither do you, so how do you know that both are correct? And how can they both be correct anyway? Did God actually say "Who shall persuade and entice Ahab"? And it doesn't stop there. The entire passages I cited have many differences in wording. Are you saying that both wordings are exactly correct?
Jun 25 08 10:52 PM
dcforrey said: It is one thing to "try to disprove the word of God". It is quite another to try to disprove the belief that one particular translation of God's Word is a perfect translation.
Jun 25 08 11:10 PM
For when Your Highness had once, out of deep judgement, apprehended how convenient it was, that, out of the Original sacred Tongues, together with comparing of the labours, both in our own and other foreign languages, of many worthy men who went before us, there should be one more exact translation of the Holy Scriptures into the English tongue; Your Majesty did never desist to urge and to excite those to whom it was commended, that the Work might be hastened, and that the business might be expedited in so decent a manner, as a matter of such importance might justly require.
Jun 26 08 7:09 AM
Shain, you can count on Will K to be very strong. Dr. Ruckman has nothing on him other than age. They both are fierce KJBOs. Also, don't tease about typos until you get your fingers under control. Too bad this site doesn't have spellchecking, ya nkwo!
Jun 26 08 9:26 AM
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