Hey...Thanks Ruth! Other than on a site trying to trash the KJ, I had never heard this before. I did see where many, not just Ripplinger etc., were accused of this belief. I am now trying to understand it simply for myself.

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BrianT: Yes, it is not common in the OT to refer to the Godhead in terms of Father, "Son", and Holy Spirit. However, there are many things that are not readily clear in the OT that the NT clarifies - this fact of course does not prove Jesus was "Son" in the OT, but it does prove that he at least could be without the OT being explicit about it.

But consider: The "Father" in the OT. Why was he called "Father"? One can only be a "Father" if one has a "Son" (or daughter). Yes, he is "our Father" and the "Father" of all creation in one sense, but what about even before creation? The orthodox Christian belief is that it was still "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit", not "the Big Guy, the Word and the Holy Spirit".


Yes, I have always believed this, until I was presented with your accusations against several well known KJ believers, then I wanted to find out what I believed about this from the Bible. It never occurred to me that Jesus was not always the Son of God, as the Second Person of the Godhead....but then I got to thinking (that is usually trouble!) that His flesh has not always been, and I wondered if that is where the rub comes in...as I struggled to talk out in my last post?

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The orthodox Christian belief is that because the Father and Son are eternal (i.e. not temporal), the Son being "begotten" (thus establishing the Father-Son relationship) is likewise eternal - not occurring at a specific point in time, but instead the Son is begotten from eternity past. The Athanasian Creed says in part:

"The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.


Yes, I believe Jesus is eternal, but His flesh had a beginning, and it began with Mary. Did it not? His flesh was created, was it not? After He ascended into heaven, He states He is not flesh and blood, but flesh and bone....as flesh and blood cannot inherit heaven. So what are your thoughts regarding these two passages.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;


Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

I can see from the Scriptures Ruth gave, that the Second Person of the Godhead was considered the Son, even though the Jews did not understand what that meant....but I cannot see from the Scriptures that He always had a body of flesh, because God used Mary for that, and He manifested Him as flesh, not that He always was flesh. For some reason this seems more like a Mormon belief to believe Jesus always had a physical body.... Difficult discussion...and probably a bit off track from the original convesation. Hope nobody minds me learning here....

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Likewise, the Nicene Creed says in part:

"the Son of God, eternally begotten from the father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten not made, one in Being with the Father."


Yeah, but that is Roman Catholic, is it not? And they would like Him to be eternally begotten, because then Mary wouuld have had to have been around eternally too. I do not find eternally begotten in the Scriptures. I don't believe the Second Person of the Trinity, God's Son was made...but I am just not seeing that His flesh was not made. Wow...this is difficult.


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I believe Jesus has always been, always been the "Son", and always been "God". He was not also "man" until the incarnation. I believe the Father is Spirit, and is "God". Yet they are the same God, not different Gods. I am strongly Trinitarian in my beliefs, and reject the Mormon understanding.


Okay...I believe that too, totally. What I was getting at about the Mormon understanding, is they believe that God, while also being a Spirit, also has a human body in heaven. That He is a man, with arms and legs, beard and such. It is almost like they took our conversation further...or not.... do you see what I mean?

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.


Mari