Brian...so sorry, my server was messed up for almost a week! It is really difficult anymore to be without a computer!


Quote by Mari:
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This is tough to find the language, and maybe it is because it is beyond our understanding, but the Biblical verse says this:

1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

It does not say God sent His Son...but that He sent His only begotten Son. The Second Person of the Godhead, was never begotten! Only the man Jesus was...

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by Brian: It depends on how you mean "begotten". If you're using it to mean "born", i.e. a beginning, then you are right. However, as I've said earlier, orthodox Trinitarian thought says that he was eternally begotten of the father - not referring to a birth or beginning, but instead of the special relationship of Father to Son - which existed into eternity past. In that sense, he was and is begotten.


I am speaking of born, as Jesus was born of a virgin. That is what the Bible tells us, and that is what I am sticking too.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Where do you find in the Scriptures that say He was eternally begotten, not as born, but as relationship. Typing that does not even make sense.

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Notice also that the text says "God sent his only begotten Son into the world" and not "God sent his only Son to be begotten into the world" - do you see the difference?


Nope...because that would not make sense. We understand begotten to mean born, and He sent His only begotten Son, meaning that He did not send other's as His Son into the world as other Saviours, because there is only one, and that is Jesus Christ. Many religions say He was only a prophet and that God sent many prophets. The distinction is that Jesus Christ is not a prophet, but the ONLY BEGOTTEN of God, His true Son. Do you understand and see that?

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One more example may help clarify this point: Hebrews 11:17 says Isaac was Abraham's "only begotten Son". This can not be referring to the birthing of Isaac, because Abraham also had another son, Ishmael. Instead, the phrase signifies the special unique relationship had between that father and son, a relationship not shared with anyone else, not even Ishmael.


I believe the text makes sense when you take the next verse into account:

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
Heb 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

That Isaac was the only begotten son of Abraham that fulfillment of the promises depended. The promises of God would not be fulfilled by Ishmael.



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The problem I have with making this a doctrine, is that it is a creed that was designed by men, not inspired by God, not part of sacred Scripture, who state Jesus is "eternally" begotten, when the Scriptures do not say, nor imply this, as far as I have seen. I see that God manifested Himself in the flesh, begotten of God, made Himself as a servant, born of a woman, in a man's body, to die for us. I understand from Scripture that this is the Word of God, the Second Person of the Godhead.

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Yes, of course a Creed is not scripture. However, it is simply the church explaining its position, its understanding of the scripture. In other words, it appears in the creed not because the church wanted to add it to scripture, but because that's what the church saw the scripture as saying in the first place. I.e. "God sent his begotten Son" as meaning he was begotten before being sent (not just after), and thus since he had no beginning "eternally begotten" is simply the term to explain how he was begotten before his incarnation. Its simply a term to explain how he was the "Son" yet without a beginning.


Brian, the Nicene creed also says this:

I Confess one Baptism for the remission of sins.

Do you believe that you are baptized for the remission of sins?

Good to be back on line...hope we can continue this discussion!:D
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.


Mari