From Marilynne John 21 Love and Love are they the same?

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Shain1611

From Marilynne John 21 Love and Love are they the same?

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Posts: 67751

(07/03/09 06:50:39)

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MarilynneVeronica		#59	[-]
Posts: 310 (07/02/09 22:51:44) Administrator	*Agapao* that IS used in John 21;15, 16....to love, indicates a direction of the will and finding one's joy in anything. With Phileo, to be contended with, denoting common interests, hence befriending. *Agapao* is used of God's love toward man and vice verse, but *phileo* is never used of the love of man toward God. Agapao and never *phileo* is used to love toward our enemies. The range of *phileo* is wider than that of *agapao* which stands higher above *phileo* because of its moral import; love that expresses compassion. Now *Agape* (NOT used in John 21); love, a word not found in Classical Greek but only in revealing religion. Translated "charity" meaning benevolent love. Its benevolence, however, is not shown by doing what the person loved desires but what one who loves deems as needed by the one loved....e.g., "For God so loved (egapesen) the world... that He gave...." What did he give? Not what man wanted but what man needed as God preceived his need. His Son to bring forgivness to man. God's love for man is God doing what He things best for man and not what he desires. It is God's willful direction toward man. But for man to show love to God he must first appropriate God's agape for only God has such an unselfish love. *Phileo*(John 21:17 2x) is to love with the meaning of having common interests with another such as in Matthew 10:37 and John 5:20 and other place. Shalom, Marilynne

Shain1611

"SANCTIFY THEM THROUGH THY TRUTH: THY WORD IS TRUTH
(John 17:17)

And Jesus Speaking; " He that rejecteth me, receiveth not my words, hath one that, judgeth him:the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in
( John12:48 KJV)

Shain1611

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Posts: 67753

(07/03/09 06:55:01)

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Shain1611 wrote:

MarilynneVeronica #59 [-]

Posts: 310

(07/02/09 22:51:44)

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Agapao that IS used in John 21;15, 16....to love, indicates a direction of the will and finding one's joy in anything. With Phileo, to be contended with, denoting common interests, hence befriending. Agapao is used of God's love toward man and vice verse, but phileo is never used of the love of man toward God. Agapao and never phileo is used to love toward our enemies. The range of phileo is wider than that of agapao which stands higher above phileo because of its moral import; love that expresses compassion.

Now Agape (NOT used in John 21); love, a word not found in Classical Greek but only in revealing religion. Translated "charity" meaning benevolent love. Its benevolence, however, is not shown by doing what the person loved desires but what one who loves deems as needed by the one loved....e.g., "For God so loved (egapesen) the world... that He gave...." What did he give? Not what man wanted but what man needed as God preceived his need. His Son to bring forgivness to man. God's love for man is God doing what He things best for man and not what he desires. It is God's willful direction toward man. But for man to show love to God he must first appropriate God's agape for only God has such an unselfish love.

Phileo(John 21:17 2x) is to love with the meaning of having common interests with another such as in Matthew 10:37 and John 5:20 and other place.

Shalom, Marilynne

So by using the Greek and not the English here would the Greek be telling us that these two words are not the same in meaning?

Shain1611

"SANCTIFY THEM THROUGH THY TRUTH: THY WORD IS TRUTH
(John 17:17)

And Jesus Speaking; " He that rejecteth me, receiveth not my words, hath one that, judgeth him:the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in
( John12:48 KJV)

groundhog91

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Posts: 11

(07/03/09 10:51:25)

The love of this world and the love of money is enmity with GOD. The love of GOD is HIS Son Jesus Christ. Anything outside HIS Son is considered Lust, which is on the same category with greed-selfish-narcissism-and satanic

Shain1611

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Posts: 67774

(07/03/09 12:15:40)

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goundhog91

The question is this, concerning John 21: 15 to 17; is the word that used " Lovest and Love " hold the same meaning ? Now according to the Greek they are two different words.

Lovest ='s

agapaō

ag-ap-ah'-o

Perhaps from ἄγαν agan (much; or compare [H5689]); to love (in a social or moral sense): - (be-) love (-ed). Compare G5368. With great love..unconditional love.

phileō

fil-eh'-o

From G5384; to be a friend to (fond of [an individual or an object]), that is, have affection for (denoting personal attachment, as a matter of sentiment or feeling; while G25 is wider, embracing especially the judgment and the deliberate assent of the will as a matter of principle, duty and propriety: the two thus stand related very much as G2309 and G1014, or as G2372 and G3563 respectively; the former being chiefly of the heart and the latter of the head); specifically to kiss (as a mark of tenderness): - kiss, love.

So we see from the Greek used here and from a Greek Lexicon they are not the same in meaing. So we have " A " verses " P "

I will place a test up on this thread for any one whocares to take and honest stab at it. and Then I will give you the results and also give you what our Lord Jesus Christ has to say about all of this.

Shain1611

"SANCTIFY THEM THROUGH THY TRUTH: THY WORD IS TRUTH
(John 17:17)

And Jesus Speaking; " He that rejecteth me, receiveth not my words, hath one that, judgeth him:the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in
( John12:48 KJV)

Radar2007

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Posts: 932

(07/03/09 21:10:29)

"Lovest thou me?" is simply the Old English version of "Do you love Me?" just as "thou knowest" is Old English for "you know". Peter is saying "Thou knowest that I love thee" is proper English; "Thou knowest that I lovest thee" would not be proper English. That's my guess.

However, I've heard (on the Catholic radio station I listen on) the Greek meanings, though I'm not sure I remember the pattern. I think that each time Jesus says, "Do you 'agape' me?" And the first two times Peter answers, "I 'phileo' you." Then finally, on the third try, Peter answers "You know that I 'agape' you." That's what I think the guy said.

However, without knowing any Greek, the passage is still meaningful to us. Jesus asked Peter three times to give Him an opportunity to repent of the three times Peter had denied Jesus after His arrest. That's the main point of the exchange. The Gospel was written in Greek, and the Greeks would have "gotten it" about the different types of love. But Jesus and Peter were very likely speaking Aramaic (or Hebrew - I heard one Scripture scholar say that she thought the Jews of Judea and Galilee spoke Hebrew as their ancestors had). Either way, I'm not aware that there are different words for "love" in those languages. I think Jesus' point was to draw the contrast with Peter's denials.

Radar

CJSAV1611

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Posts: 3489

(07/04/09 07:50:18)

Radar2007 wrote:

"Lovest thou me?" is simply the Old English version of "Do you love Me?" just as "thou knowest" is Old English for "you know". Peter is saying "Thou knowest that I love thee" is proper English; "Thou knowest that I lovest thee" would not be proper English. That's my guess.

However, I've heard (on the Catholic radio station I listen on) the Greek meanings, though I'm not sure I remember the pattern. I think that each time Jesus says, "Do you 'agape' me?" And the first two times Peter answers, "I 'phileo' you." Then finally, on the third try, Peter answers "You know that I 'agape' you." That's what I think the guy said.

However, without knowing any Greek, the passage is still meaningful to us. Jesus asked Peter three times to give Him an opportunity to repent of the three times Peter had denied Jesus after His arrest. That's the main point of the exchange. The Gospel was written in Greek, and the Greeks would have "gotten it" about the different types of love. But Jesus and Peter were very likely speaking Aramaic (or Hebrew - I heard one Scripture scholar say that she thought the Jews of Judea and Galilee spoke Hebrew as their ancestors had). Either way, I'm not aware that there are different words for "love" in those languages. I think Jesus' point was to draw the contrast with Peter's denials.

Radar

HI RADAR

Good Response but I think SHAIN is trying to point out a fact that the Greek used here over steps the true meaning of both those words used there. But good post none the less.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

steelmaker

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Posts: 4602

(07/04/09 10:59:43)

We must accept the Greek, as that's the original language of the NT Scriptures, far as we know. English gas no SINGLE word for verying degrees or types of love.

granny wren

another thought

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Posts: 4175

(07/04/09 16:06:02)

remember peter denied Jesus THREE times ,,,the night they took Jesus prisoner,

after Jesus resurrected ,, he talked with Peter and he ask him three times do you love me,,,

, By him asking Peter ''do you love me ......peter''
did Jesus want peter to be ''convicted of taking his own feelings too lightly'', peter reminds me of a big overgrown kid.....

Peter is like most of us ....he does tend to talk out of turn and gets himself in trouble at many turns,,,,he is in other words,........very ..flighty,,,

When Jesus asked him ......the third time,,,,,, it was like Jesus wanted Peter to truly mean ........all he said ......to really truly mean it ,...., yes to honestly mean it ,,,

At first peter nonchelantly said Peter do you love me,,,,? you know i do,
peter might have even sounded playful.....when Jesus said ''feed my sheep''

Jesus was next more, serious sounding ''loveth thou me '',,,

Peter was getting hot
he wondered if the lord thought he truly did not love him,

,,that third time Jesus ask ,,
,,it broke the spirit of the man ,.....called peter ....
and he truly realized how much ....
..he honestly did love...his master,,,, the Lord,,,,
<><><><>
that is what my knower showed to me,,,
you know....... some people .....will say what they think.... you wish to hear ....and you appease them ,,,,

then it sounds like they might not believe you......,you get hot,
...
then the third time the question burns into your heart,,,,makes you sad to even think that Jesus would not believe him ;.......and peter got serious ,,,with the lord,,,

''i love you'',

he meant it honestly
and jesus said
''feed my sheep'' just as seriously,.

,,,,,,,jesus was still serious.;.
.i wanted to cry for peter ,,

,because peter had felt so guilty
denying him that night ,,,,
they took jesus ,
and when that old rooster crowed,,,
he rememmbered the look
Jesus gave to him.,,,,
and Peter felt so guilty.....

,,,i never hear a rooster crow now,
but what i think of '';jesus and Peter,''
i bet the same thing happened to Peter
when he heard a rooster crow
from then on.....

" Welcome to: "The Casting of Pearls" Board, Enjoy our 'little labor' for: OUR LORD.
http://thecastingofpearls96691.yuku.com/

Last Edited By: granny wren 07/04/09 16:38:15. Edited 2 times.

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From Marilynne John 21 Love and Love are they the same?

From Marilynne John 21 Love and Love are they the same?

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